[mekong70]

I just purchased a 2011 Juke SL Turbo a week ago with 104,000 miles. I added a premium gas additive today and now the engine noise has increased to a significant growl! There's a little increase also to the idle noise. What happened? The engine noise was quite quiet when I first bought it.
Thanks, Mike

 

[Macgyver]

I hope you didnt add the stuff to your engine oil.

Most likely the injectors are louder now so Run through the tank of gas and dont use that additive again.

 

[squirtbrnr]

Never put any “additive” or “detergent” into fuel or oil. I don’t care what the teenager behind the parts counter says about the bottles that have been sitting on the counter for years. The only treatment that has been proven to be effective on the Juke is an induction cleaning done properly at a dealership.

 

[Macgyver]

The best injector cleaner is run the BEST grade gasoline you can. Sunoco. Shell. Mobil. Exxon. Etc. Stop using the cheapest gas you can buy will stop more than injector issues too.

 

[mekong70]

I hope you didnt add the stuff to your engine oil.

Most likely the injectors are louder now so Run through the tank of gas and dont use that additive again.

No..not to oil...I'll run the tank out. Thanks Macgyver.

 

[Macgyver]

Get a really good tank of gas too after that.

 

[mekong70]

Get a really good tank of gas too after that.

I'm put a grade above regular gas in yesterday....still has a loud growl. Taking it to a Nissan dealer next week..the same one that did an oil and tune up about two weeks ago. Thanks buddy.

 

[TreeSemdyZee]

I'm put a grade above regular gas in yesterday....still has a loud growl. Taking it to a Nissan dealer next week..the same one that did an oil and tune up about two weeks ago. Thanks buddy.

These burn premium. High compression turbo need higher octane. NEVER regular.
if you’ve been running regular, it’s a good possibility that you’re getting pre-ignition that can roast your engine.

 

[FastReligion]

These burn premium. High compression turbo need higher octane. NEVER regular.
if you’ve been running regular, it’s a good possibility that you’re getting pre-ignition that can roast your engine.

No.

 

[TreeSemdyZee]

No.

Elaborate.

 

[FastReligion]

Copying my post from this thread: https://www.jukeforums.com/threads/premium-vs-regular-gas-debate.117910/page-37#post-2663210

I still can't believe this conversation is continuing. Octane rating is a means of measuring the fuels resistance to knock. You can run 87/89 (US grading) fuel in a juke without issue. Unless your beating the snot out of the car, or tuned for more aggressive fuel, it will not hurt anything. OEM's always recommend higher grade fuel as a form of butt protection. Call it plausible deniability. Also, note the key word. RECOMMENDED. Not REQUIRED. A Ferrari REQUIRES premium. It is a sports car. Tuned for power. A GTR REQUIRES premium. Same logic. If you don't believe me, go stand at a local gas station for a day. Take down the vehicle, and the octane selected. Then look up how many vehicles that day recommend premium vs how many people used it. OEM's would not dare sell a vehicle that could not safely run on cheap fuel. That's just asking for a nightmare. Unless your Subaru in the early 00's. At that point you just hope the engine will run a mile up the road. But I digress.

During normal driving, the combustion chamber does not get hot enough to cause pre-detonation. Even if you have absolutely terrible quality fuel in the tank, the crapiest spark plugs known to man, or 2mm of carbon on the valves, the ecu has the ability to predict a detonation event before it happens but use of the knock sensor listening for un-natural combustion that can lead to knocking. If you look at the ECU doing a knock count, you can see it does not pull any ignition timing until you are well above 1000 units.

The ECU also has the ability to pull as much timing as needed to stop knock from happening. On our shop test car we have been able to get the ECU to pull 9 degrees of timing as part of a rev experiment we did. The same car was able to make 350 wheel horsepower on 87 octane fuel with no additives. Not that we recommend this or would ever keep a car like this, as eventually it will knock pretty badly during a real world pull. But it is do-able in a controlled environment.

Also, if you look at places like California, They do not even have access to 93 octane fuel, and in some areas you cannot even get 91. So if running a lower octane fuel was going to blow cars up, don't you think there would be mass engine failure in those areas?

I work on and interact with a lot of jukes and juke owners. I can PROMISE you that 95% of them have never put anything higher than 87 in their car and they run totally fine. I don't think I have met someone who drives an un-modified Juke that I do maintenance on that has ever used 93. I may start asking people as they come in so I can get hard data on this.

When money is tight for me, I even put 87 in my Juke. I load up a tune I have made that's very conservative, so around OEM, and run 87 until I feel financially able to put 93 in and load up more power. And that's a car running a massive turbo.

Also, @hls1942 the V1 is a 9.5:1 compression ratio. The V2 is a 10.5:1. But the compression is not what causes knock in this case, it is the addition of nearly 1 atmosphere of boost and high revs that can do it. Most modern NA cars run compression ratios much much higher than this, and you see those cars getting 87/89 every time you drive by a gas station.

So again, the only time premium fuel is RECOMMENDED is in the following situations;
-Hard, aggressive driving. If you have a lead foot and are doing WOT pulls every chance you get.
-High altitude driving. Reduced oxygen in the air can throw off fuel mixtures, so you want to reduce the chances of a lean condition causing knock.
-Towing. Engine loads are always much higher and engines run a lot hotter when doing this. But you should not be towing in a Juke anyway.
-Tuned specifically for performance. If you have been tuned on 91/93, you MUST run that fuel. Your tuner more than likely ran the car to the bleeding edge of what the fuel can handle at your power level.

If the car is just getting commuted and driven like 99% of people drive their cars. 87/89 is fine.

 

[Macgyver]

Ok.

People need to understand that there are many ways to make gasoline. There are many different formulas. It is not just different octanes. They have different additive packages. You pay for what you get. Sunoco. Shell. Mobil Exxon are superior to your rot gut mini market cheapo gas.

Buy Good gas. Don't buy cheapo rot gut gas. You want your engine to live longer? Put in the best gas you can and change the oil.

 

[FastReligion]

I disagree. There is only one way to produce gasoline. 99% of fuel comes from the same place. The additives that are required by law are added to all fuels. Some fuels use different proprietary mixtures of those additives. I have tuned 400+ whp Jukes on my dinky local pump 93 over and over. There is no performance difference between the fuel there, and from a big company. And since the discussion here related to pre-detonation; brand does not matter. ALL fuels use the same production methods to create certain octane ratings.

Paying extra for the additional detergents and such found in big name gasoline does not make a difference to your vehicle in the long run. Some of the highest mileage vehicles I have ever put my hands on run almost exclusively on the cheap stuff. The EPA requires certain additives per season. DOT requires others. You can only add so much extra crap into the fuel before it starts to effect its octane rating.

Also; keep in mind that detergents in gasoline do literally nothing for a direct injected vehicle. The detergents are designed to clean carbon deposits off of the valves........fuel does not pass over the valves on a DI engine. And if you have carbon in the combustion chamber, then you have way bigger issues than gasoline brand. I recently sent out 3 sets of Juke injectors to get cleaned and serviced. One from a 60k mile car, one set from a 200k mile car, and one from a 116k mile car. All of the, had the same flow performance to start with. In fact, a lot of additives on the market right now are being shown to be bad for direct injection, as the additional product breaks down in the 2000+ psi high pressure fuel system. Diesels have been dealing with that issue for years.

If you want to make your eyes bleed you can read through the federal epa requirements linked here.

If you want to see how gasoline production actually works you can check out this AAA article here.

If you want to see some stats for Minnesota fuel production you can find that in this article here.

If you want to see the map of the only pipelines that distribute gasoline you can find that here.

If you want government information of fuel distribution you can find it here.

Gasoline is gasoline. 90% of people only own their vehicles for 40-60k miles, or 5 years. Not anywhere enough time for "bad gas" (which does not actually exist, unless the gas station you are at has stale fuel or water seepage) to damage the vehicle in a significant way. If your not racing, and your vehicle does not REQUIRE 91+ octane, just stop at the gas station your closest to when you need it, and put what you can afford in the tank. It is literally that simple.

 

[Macgyver]

I agree to disagree.

The oil thats comes out the ground here in Pa is different than in Texas and Saudi Arabia, Russia etc. There are many types of Crude. They all produce different types of gas. They still can be called gasoline.

I never said Injectors. I never said short term. I never said Winter vs Summer.

Cheap gas will leave FAR more combustion by products in the combustion chamber etc.. (Why is there low Sulpher diesel? Yeah EPA crap but same thing with gas) This isnt about tuning a car on whatever gas on a few dyno pulls. I never said that. It is not good to run cheap gas over long periods. 100K miles on a cheap gas engine will be WAY dirtier than one that runs a top grade fuel.

Tequila is Tequila til you drink a really expensive one. Then its like WOW. Same thing cept Tequilla will rot you gut no matter what you drink.

 

[Bargeld]

I'll throw my hat into this one, since the information is readily available, as long as you vet your sources.

I ended up here:

Gasoline explained - octane in depth - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An introduction to gasoline octane, why octane is important, and how it is measured.

www.eia.gov

That AAA article by FR looked valid and pretty in-depth.

Ultimately, my take is a middle ground, and the simple description is that all gasoline is pumped through common pipelines, which co-mingles the product with other "batches" of gasoline and even with other types of fuels (jet fuel, diesel, ethanol, etc.) but there are steps in place to handle that type of transport. End result is that gasoline can be considered to all be the same, yet because of the journey, they are always different. But it doesn't matter because the detergents and additives and ethanol are added at the truck level, which ultimately delivers to the retail outlet. That makes the end product very different from location to location and from region to region as well as season to season.
(As a AAA member, I figured their response was going to be driven by sponsorship, since a lot of what they do uses that business model, similar to consumer reports, but I was pleasantly surprised when they discussed testing on "top tier" gasoline and didn't explicitly name drop any brands, while still presenting their results that "top tier" gasoline did result in less buildup on the valves.)

Last bit is octane and pre-ignition, and the takeaway there is that, although newer car computers are designed to handle different octanes and to protect vehicles from the damaging effects, there is a cost to operating with out-of-spec gasoline, which results in poor fuel economy and non-ideal emissions. So yeah, you can use regular in the juke, it shouldn't damage it unless you are out of spec (as FR has stated) BUT it is will result in lower fuel economy and higher emissions, relative to how much snot you are beating out of it.

 

[pboglio]

Have to agree here. A Juke is very very knock resistant, unusually so for a turbo car compared to say a port injection turbo. The cylinder head coolant passages are extensive and this is one of the contributing factors along with good chamber & piston design, DI injection, piston oil injection, etc. You are knocking then something stupid has been done to the tune or the boost is sky high. I would not purposely run 87 octane as it will default to a less aggressive timing/fuel tune map and that sucks but neither would I fear it blowing up. I prefer Mobile or Shell only, bad experiences with BP fuel.

Timing retard saving an engine.....yes but I wouldn't count on it all the time. The Juke with bolt-on parts I dynoed running 100 octane unleaded and always will despite it's knock resistance. I experienced a fuel system leanout on the Juke from the leaking rail pressure sensor and the stock alternator cutout, luckily the Juke survived it as I didn't detect it right away. I've had a fuel system leanout (other vehicle) due to an overrun speed density map sensor and fuel pump heavily affected by high boost pressures and it's only the 100 octane/xylene/octane booster in the fuel tank that saved the engine when it was hit with a massive fuel system leanout. That got corrected but never on that vehicle would I trust the knock retard strategy to save it as things happen very quickly. Was the high fuel octane that did that. Octane matters a huge amount, so does cylinder cooling.

Fuel additives are snake oil. They are mainly Naptha based, read the MSDS and the dilution ratio in the fuel tank is ridiculous. The induction/fuel cleaning is also pointless. Injectors are properly cleaned with a reverse flow and ultrasonic cleaning using a solvent. Intake carbon deposits require full disassembly or blasting to remove or maybe water/meth injection would help. I had much fun removing this buildup with the head off the vehicle. Despite what you will read the buildup has a lot to do with the natural seepage of engine oil past the valve guide seals.....this is normal for proper lubrication. Unfortunately no fuel to wash it off, thus the deposit buildup. Now OEM are running dual Port & DI injection systems. The OP's problem is undetermined and the Nissan dealership has to figure it out.

 

[Macgyver]

Good gas is good gas. Cheap gas is bad gas. There are impurities of all sorts in our gas and cheap gas tends to have more. And yes there is lots of both all around the country. You get what you pay for.

That AAA article supports exactly what I am saying.

I am fortunate to live near a Sunoco pipeline tank farm. The 94 Ultra is about as fresh as you can get. And Yes. Gas ages. It does not age well. That is a whole nother topic. I certainly would not want to use gas that was a year old in any of my cars. Lawn mowers are a different ball game.

 

[pboglio]

I'd like to run Sunoco 94, there's one out near the Indiana border if I remember correctly. Japanese I think run 95 octane or similar.

Should read some of the Sunoco Racing fuel blends. If anyone thinks gas is gas, you will be blown away by the hugely different formulations in their MSDS. We are not talking about pump, this is 5 to 50 gallon sealed drums. The fuels are highly tailored to what boost you are running, static compression ratio, timing advance, type of racing, etc. The formulations are all over the place with different Ethanol %, high oxygenation, MMT additives, Xylen/Toulene %, etc. No, fuel are not all the same. Pump gas no way no how would I trust pushing the limit and never have as it most definitely can degrade. If the volatiles components evaporate off (i.e. xylene/toulene) your octane rating is taking a massive hit, and these do over time. I'd only run 93 octane at a high quality/name brand gas station with lot's of traffic.

 

[squirtbrnr]

Remember, there are many ways to rate octane. The US uses a different rating system than other parts of the world. It results in a 93 octane being equivalent to 85-87. Can’t remember which is higher (us or the rest of the world).

 

[pboglio]

Japanese have a higher equivalent octane rating than us, even considering the MON or RON differences. Their 100 RON octane is equal to 95 AKI octane in the U.S. and their 98 RON octane is about equal to our 93 AKI octane. Slightly higher but still higher and useful. AKI = (RON + MON) /2.

The Sunoco link shows the correlation between MON, RON, and AKI ratings. Huge differences in fuel types and formulations. Basically a Naptha, Toulene, Xylene, Ethanol, maybe Methanol, & MMT, etc type blend. The SDS if you are a chemist is an interesting read, especially the highly oxygenated fuels. Lot's of stuff that can evaporate off or absorb water over time, thus the aging factor. Highest unleaded is about 105 AKI (110 RON/100 MON) and basically has any and all of the above minus lead. That is how you basically get above 87 octane more or less these days on unleaded. Xylene/Toulene (i.e. paint thinner) will pretty much dissolve deposits which is the main ingredient in fuel cleaners, except at a ridiculously low concentration. You can pretty much buy Xylene/Toulene at Sherwin Williams or online and run some of that in your tank at up to 20-30% max mixing ratio and it will definitely start cleaning out the injectors like no other fuel cleaner ever will if you are brave enough. Costs mucho bucks to run high octane so unless you need that it's basically wasted.

A good link:

Gasoline explained - octane in depth - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

An introduction to gasoline octane, why octane is important, and how it is measured.

www.eia.gov

Fuel Selector | Sunoco Race Fuels

www.sunocoracefuels.com