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Discussion Starter #141
I figured Lars would have some serious interest in doing the swap. I can't see a Rally car being FWD, no matter how much I try. Hope you get it done but either way you were rolling on this first so IMHO you get the credit. If you can get that differential controller rocking, that would be a bonus. Is the ECM issue related to the AWD aspect and ABS or something, I'm trying to figure out why a FWD ECM wouldn't work. Sorry, I'm behind on this thread.
He has a transmission on a boat coming to the US right now and I have been casually talking to him about the swap. I have been sharing the information I have found so far, some he doesn't agree with but he can find that out for himself when it he gets to it. Thank you, I have put a lot into this mainly because I want it to happen but getting the credit would be nice too. Thankfully if the differential controller doesn't work out I have the aftermarket one that can be used even if I have to use that as a temporary solution in the meantime. I need to do some can logging to see if what information goes back and forth between the tcu and diff controller. It's possible if I have to I can spoof the tcu messages to keep the diff controller functional. .
 
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I'm sure your hard work will be rewarded :) This is pretty much my top post/thread (anywhere) I keep an eye on, I am super excited to see your efforts.
 
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So I'm looking at the AWD System diagram. The AWD Controller is looking from the TCM the following: 1) Next gear position signal, 2) Current gear position signal, 3) Input shaft revolution signal, 4) Output shaft revolution signal, CVT ratio signal.

This to me is what will be extremely challenging. 1 & 2 not a problem. 3 is essentially the torque converter output speed. Here you may have a problem because it will be expecting slippage when the converter clutch would be open, but it won't be because the torque converter doesn't exist. 4 is essentially measured right before the final drive (i.e. differential) unit. It's a function of gear ratio based off the input shaft signal. Tricky but the gear ratios can be fixed if you trick it into thinking it's in Manual mode. Keep in mind 1st gear is variable, 2nd gear is variable, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th gears are fixed in manual mode. CVT ratio signal is coming off the ratio control stepper, mechanically connected to the Primary pulley sheave thru a linkage rod/shaft. TCM is going to be cross checking the Input & Output speeds and then making adjustments to the "stepper" position to get the ratio it's expecting. So fake signal to a stepper, then the stepper itself is counting the counts to know where it physically should be linearly. This is pretty intense stuff.

Honestly I don't think you can do it without tripping codes in the AWD control unit. You literally would have to have access to the internal TCM maps to pull it off.

If it were me I'd step to the FWD ECM, make it work with the ABS unit and BCM, getting rid of the TCM completely. The aftermarket diff controller is your best bet. If that can work with torque vectoring, great. To reliably work it'll have to cluch/declutch when not needed, otherwise it'll overheat the rear clutch packs. If it can't you now have the problem of constant clutch pack slippage due to the front to rear speed differential built into the design. If that happens.....you'd have to rework the transfer case bevel gear count to match the rear bevel gear count and get 1:1 ratio between them. This is going to be very very tricky.

Throwing out some initial overview from an outside perspective.
 

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Discussion Starter #144
@pboglio

Yeah that's pretty much the same conclusion I came to which is part of why I am skeptical about Joe @ 2J saying he could make it work with the ECM still thinking it's a CVT. I mean I am sure it will run but I very much doubt the AWD controller will be functional.

I think it would be pretty easy to make the ABS work, the BCM will likely require being reprogrammed by the dealer since they don't give access to their Consult tool to end users. I wonder if the Consult tool has the ability to make any changes in the Differential controller, it's very unlikely but who knows. As far as the aftermarket differential controller goes it does sound like it has the ability to clutch clutch and declutch when not needed as well as the ability to adjust the engagement curve with a laptop but it lacks torque vectoring because it slaves both clutch packs to a single output. What I could do is try using the aftermarket controller because I already have it and if that doesn't work I can swap out the rear differential too together for one from Nissan Murano which has the the correct gearing to match the transfer case. The downside to that is it would require changing out the rear axles, driveshaft, and likely need a custom differential mount but it would be feasible and fairly easy to accomplish.

Thank you, I do appreciate the input and find it helpful to get a second perspective on this problem.
 

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Yeah, no problem. Was an interesting read on the AWD differential controller, hadn't looked at that before now actually.

2J were dreaming, honestly. No one has even touched the TCM, and thus it's near impossible. Add in what you are trying to do and I think the strategy you have makes sense.

Yes, the aftermarket differential controller is 100% a better solution or should say workable solution. IMHO running in AWD mode with the Front/Rear torque split "fixed" electronically and the rear side/side set at 50:50 is simpler. If both clutches cannot adjust independently, then torque vectoring won't be possible and it's a done deal. You would end up with mostly adjustment on the F/R split with rear being locked at 50:50. Still not bad. Typically how the AWD mode on the Juke works anyway.

I would think e-differential controllers at some point would come out that would eventually be torque vectoring capable. To me that is a software problem. The hardware is all sitting on the car to physically do it.
 

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Would Torque Vectoring need some hook-up to a gyro as well?
 

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The inputs are: ABS speed sensor, throttle position, g-sensor, steering angle, plus a few others.

Yes, that is for YAW control.
 
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Discussion Starter #148
The AWD controller is an interesting piece of hardware that's for sure. Maybe I will open it up and have a look after I swap it out for the aftermarket unit to see what can be learned from it to potentially reverse engineer it for a dual output aftermarket controller capable of torque vectoring.

I took a look inside the DCCD Pro controller and it is very very simple internally. I could probably use that as a base for making a dual output unit that could do some level of torque vectoring. I very much doubt they would let me have a look at their code though so that would likely be on me to figure out. .
 
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Makes sense. Single output you are going to have to slave both electromagnet clutches together but varying that single output to get the right slippage for F/R torque split. Also I should mention here you have the opportunity to run a front Torsen or clutch mechanical LSD which can offset the need for rear vectoring. The CVT AWD have an open diff front LSD, so they really need the vectoring.

A good front LSD with a proper F/R split and using the diff. controller to manage that is basically going to mitigate any understeer under power from not having vectoring. This would be like an old school EVO or STi. Throw in some tire & suspension upgrades and it's achieving the same thing a different way.

Reverse engineer sounds like a good plan. The hardware is all in place, it's waiting for a controller and the factory inputs to drive it.
 
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The AWD controller is an interesting piece of hardware that's for sure. Maybe I will open it up and have a look after I swap it out for the aftermarket unit to see what can be learned from it to potentially reverse engineer it for a dual output aftermarket controller capable of torque vectoring.

I took a look inside the DCCD Pro controller and it is very very simple internally. I could probably use that as a base for making a dual output unit that could do some level of torque vectoring. I very much doubt they would let me have a look at their code though so that would likely be on me to figure out. .
Possibly flat out ask them if they have any vectoring solution?
 

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Discussion Starter #151
Possibly flat out ask them if they have any vectoring solution?
I did and they didn't at that time. I may reach out again and ask them if that has changed but it is unlikely since there target market is Subarus that really only have one electromagnetic clutch pack. I imagine they have only sold a few controllers for the Juke which wouldn't make them want to invest more time and effort in a proper solution.
 
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Here's one I might look at for my WRX STI:


This might be exactly the one you may need. It has on-board g-sensor/gyro. It has full 3D-tuning maps. Also has full capability to take factory g-sensor, steering angle sensor, ABS inputs, etc. Full datalogging. Software looks slick.

If you got (2) DCCD controllers and tied (1) per side of the vehicle, then you have some options. It's looks for ABS wheel speed sensor FRONT signal and comparing to ABS wheel speed sensor REAR signal. Now you can split those signals into ABS F,R & R,R on controller (1) and then ABS FL, & RL on controller (2).

If you have full control of the 3D maps with TPS, g-sensor, steering wheel angles, etc. then you can basically force the diff. controller to do what you want in certain driving conditions. It can only apply clamping force commands to (1) clutch, nothing more. You would be in charge of how much the left side clutch applies in relation to the right side and so forth. The controller really only cares about Front to Rear biasing, but if you have (2) controllers together you can coordinate this biasing to YAW the car. Almost like applying differential thrust on a twin engine Jet, this will tend to yaw the vehicle if applied differently per side.

Very complicated, but the software now has all stock Juke inputs available to do what the factory AWD differential controller does. How you tune the 3D-tables for given situations and coordinate between the controllers will be the trick.
 

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Discussion Starter #153
That interface looks much nicer than DCCD Pro's.

So what I think DCCD Pro did is slightly change their code for the a CVT application but didn't change the hardware to actually ad the ability to control both clutch packs. I did a little looking and they don't even have the Juke controller listed any more the closest thing I could find was this and even then there is no listing to buy it. They used to have a Juke specific controller listed but it looks to be gone at this point. I wonder if it was do to lack of sales or issues with it. This would make it hard for those looking to repeat the swap unless a better solution is found.

 

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Yep, I really like the interface. It's more like a Flashtune interface and it's completely configurable. Price is pretty good at $429 shipped.

Something like that would at least get the Juke driving no problem, might even be a good solid non-torque vectoring AWD setup. Running dual DCCD controllers I think it could then start achieving what the Nissan AWD diff controller is doing. That would take time but I'm sure you could figure it out.

How the factory FWD ECM then figures out what's going on will be interesting. The factory traction control might not understand the slippage rates occuring but I think defeating it completely would probably eliminate the issue. This is one of those cases where at least mapping out the control strategy you can at least get ahead of these types of potential issues. Keeping the factory VDC setup active would be nice but not a deal breaker for sure. There is a decent case for a standalone ECM but then ABS/Traction control become problematic and what a wiring nightmare. Not sure if Motec or AEM have figured that stuff out yet or what. Wish they could have a brake vectoring solution since it's really only the ABS system it's messing with. That would be killer.

The rest is mechanical and it sounds like you have a solid game plan. I'd be very curious to see you put together a retrofit AWD kit once you prove everything out. I like new parts so keep that in mind....lol. I'm supportive of this and feel like the control strategy is going to be what makes it easier for the average Joe to live with.

Keep up the great work and stay motivated.
 

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Discussion Starter #155
What I will likely do is reach back out to DCCD pro and see if they would be willing to work with me on a dual output controller if I can show them there would be some interest or at least see if they can get me going in the right direction. One of my initial ideas was to run two of their Juke controllers to get the two outputs I wanted.

Another I have done quite a bit of work with standalone ECMs mainly Megasquirt but to my knowledge they do not presently have DI support. I wonder if a Microsquirt could be modified to control the differential since they have multiple outputs, can use a stripped down version of CAN and are pretty versatile. I think with the amount of modifications that would be required though it would almost be better to start from scratch or build on the differential controller I already have.

Once the I have everything installed I will start working on getting sources for all the needed parts for those looking to repeat my swap. I would even be willing to work with an importer to get several transmissions brought into the US if there is enough interest. It likely wont be financially viable to do this long term but if my information and help could get at least one or two Jukes swapped over I think it would be completely worth the effort.

Thank you, the closer this swap gets the motivated I become. I even ordered a few parts to upgrade the Juke while it's apart. A new intercooler, material for a downpipe and exhaust, and I am going to reach out to a local Turbo shop about getting some machine work done on my stock turbo while I am at it. I figure if I have to get the car tuned I may as well get it tuned for some more power while I am at it.

I should have the Baja done by next weekend. I will be wrapping up the exhaust this weekend and then we are just waiting on a pair of front axles and knuckles.
 

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Sounds like a good plan.

If it could do ECM + DCCD control + ABS traction control then I'd say it's a good option for a standalone. Otherwise a reflash stock ECM just might be less headache. I know Lars was running the LINK setup and it looks like he had problems with it at some point. I'd like to run standalone some day. On the EVO X the ECUreflash options are insane. There are SST tuning maps for the DSG transmission option that work amazing, sort of like a CVT TCM reflash basically. Makes a standalone almost redundant. But with my Juke CVT and the EVO X being so complex, a standalone is near impossible without throwing out a lot of functionality. I don't think the standalone is a good option for a Juke street car because of those issues. The CANBUS is doing so much that too many control functions/display functions get eliminated. For a race car, maybe. I'm trying to find options for the CVT TCM but my plans are a piggyback setup I designed that controls the pulley pressure signal and nothing more. Having the ability to change shift maps, pressures, shift rpms, etc. would be awesome for what I'm doing with the CVT upgrades. But I'll have to manage with a couple of work arounds or talk with ECUTek to make it happen. For that to become reality, I'd have to become an ECUTek professional tuner and I don't see it happening either way.
 

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Discussion Starter #157
I think for now a stock ECM reflash is going to be the best route and I found a few "guides" on reflashing an ECM with a Consult 3 Plus and it looks like it should be possible to flash a CVT ECM with a manual ECM image if I have to go that route which would also give me the ability to reprogram the BCM which would also like be required. The hard part about that would be actually getting my hands on the Consult 3 Plus software and the communications module. I have found a few sketchy sources for what I am guessing are knock off versions of them but I am very suspect as to them actually working. If I cared less I could just buy a manual BCM and ECM but that would mean the mileage would be off likely by a large amount and since my car has maybe 35k miles on it right now I would rather not go that route if I don't have to.

I like the idea of a standalone ECM for the juke but with how integrated everything is in modern cars that would just add a lot more problems then it would solve. Not sure if you would have any interest or if it would be helpful for your endeavors but I will have the TCM and low miles CVT from my RS if you are interested.
 

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Standalone are cool as you are completely in control but not worth the bother. My ECUflash on the EVO X does everything I need and I tune it myself. Juke I'm stuck with tuners but I'll be using Drunkmann so it shouldn't be too bad. Understood on the reflash, hopefully it works out. The ECM are not cheap that's for sure.

It's be nice if the AWD diff controller could have been hacked directly for us CVT AWD owners. Then that could be tuneable without going aftermarket. There is a lot of potential even on the CVT AWD but without direct access to the TCM or AWD diff. controls we will always be limited. I'd asked ECMLink to look into it years ago and they had zero interest outside of DSM and early EVO's which they currently supported. Those types of projects are huge so being a small community we just cannot get much traction on the ECM/TCM front.

I'm going to say this which might hurt for some people but our Juke forums are nowhere near the technical sophistication say that EvolutionM.net or Nasioc.com is. I mean yes, guys are doing different things now here but it's a couple of guys at most and it's not the same thing. But slapping turbo upgrades on a Juke, porting heads, custom cams.......not that complex. Then people claim some type of god like status for doing it. Venture into the EVO or WRX forums and it's another dimension like traveling to another planet in terms of parts development, ECM/TCM development, suspension/racing tuning, etc.

But from a technical perspective I particularly don't learn much here, and that's said with some regret. I'm not sure why but the posts haven't progressed much technically from 10 years ago. We need more guys who write code. A few of the car forums were founded by enthusiasts who deconstructed the ECMs and provided reflash options. Once that happens it cracks open the technical development on all fronts. Not so much here. ECUTek is like Fort Knox, they don't care one bit because I already asked. UPRev I'm not sure but they are behind ECUTek in terms of capability. ECUTek cracked the Nissan GTR TCM and they have the technical capability but don't care for the Juke. I found more stuff on the EVO X SST/DSG forums that really parallels what I'm trying to do on the CVT so I know I'm on the right track, they really are alike in many ways. In some ways I've done as much on the CVT in 2.5 years as the SST guys have done since 2011. The guy that wrote the code for the EVO X SST reflash is another brilliant dude, we just don't have that for the Juke CVT. Keep in mind Mitsubishi don't make an enormous effort to encrypt the ECM. Nissan from my understanding make it extremely difficult. I've heard this is the same with BMW as well. This might explain the differences. It's like our forums have entry level owners or experienced guys who just are using the Juke for daily driving.

Yeah, I'd be interested in that TCM if you aren't going to be needing it. I'll send you a PM on that. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #159
I do all my own tuning for every car I have running MegaSquirt and will be doing it as well for the Baja when it is finished. I will need to shop around for someone to actually Tune my Juke once I get to that point since I may not be using a tuner to reflash my ECM. On the plus side if the sketchy consult works out then that could make doing other cars easier or potentially lending it out for others to do it.

I think at some point it could be possible to but yes it would require direct access the options are very limited. The Juke didn't get a lot of acceptance in the US as far as the car enthusiast community is concerned so getting people to make products for it is very difficult.

I completely agree but I also think that also goes back to the lack of interest in Jukes in the the US, both EvolutionM.net and Nasioc.com represent much larger groups of cars with much more interest in the car community. I suppose that's part of what brought be to the Juke in the first place, it's one of those cars you love or you hate with very little middle ground. I really want to see what I can do with the differential controller both the aftermarket and the factory unit. If I have to buy the Consult 3+ anyways I can poke around and see if there is anything that might be useful, probably not but you never know. Nissan locking everything behind a proprietary tool frustrates me to no end but it is what it is. I know what you said wasn't directed at me personally but I feel I can contribute more than I already have to this community. My immediate plan after getting this swap together will be working on a better solution for the differential controller.

Okay sounds good.
 

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Lol....no it definitely wasn't directed at you. Agreed, small group of owners and the Juke isn't considered a performance car. There have been great contributors to the Juke platform, for sure but you see the difference spending time on the other forums.

Anyhow, I'd be interesting to see what the Consult 3+ can do.
 
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