AWD vs 4x4

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Thread: AWD vs 4x4

  1. #1
    Senior Member Bargeld's Avatar
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    AWD vs 4x4

    It doesn't happen as much as it did when I first got mine, but:

    "What is it?"

    Also, not to be Debbie Downer, but AWD is not 4x4:
    https://www.google.com/search?source...7j0l5.3554j0j7
    2012 Juke SL AWD Sapphire Black
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  3. #2
    Junior Member Nismo Offroad's Avatar
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    Seriously? They are asking thinking it's only 2wd. Not knowing it's AWD. The reason for the 4x4 was to really push the look. Because my Nismo didn't come with an awd emblem like other models.
    I know the difference especially when no one offers a lift kit and you have to figure it out on your own.
    2013 Nismo AWD Mods: 3" Custom straight pipe exhaust and second cat delete, GFB BOV, Glow Shift Boost gauge, LED Gator lights, Rokblokz Red Mudflaps, 15" Drag wheels 14.5lbs w/ 295/50R15, 42" LED light bar combo, Bull Bar, WELL visors painted, 2J Racing-Bc Coilovers 2" lift, Red Hoses, & Red Pulley, EFi-Logic red IC pipes CAI, MRP FMIC, All door handle covers

  4. #3
    Senior Member Bargeld's Avatar
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    Not to totally sidetrack the thread, but IMO, the CVT is horrible for any type of offroading or heavy load at low speeds... by that, I mean climbing inclines, reversing, towing, low speed/stop/start in sand, etc. Reversing is the worst... my AWD juke screams and kicks just trying to backup my North Carolina driveway. Looking at your rock climb pictures made me realize how annoying it must have been to climb up there to get those shots.

    I think that rock climb is a good example of the differences between 4x4 vs AWD. A 4x4 would behave completely different in that situation. I have a 2016 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk that I've taken offroad and on beaches in sand a few times, and I know my AWD juke powertrain would have had serious struggles and that throttle and vehicle settings would behave differently.

    When I first got my Juke, before any mods, I was looking at lifting vs lowering. I like the look of it as a lifted rally vehicle... but as I drove it more, I realized it was definitely NOT an offroad machine. Sure it looks cool as an offroader, but anyone can add knobby tires and a lift kit to a vehicle, but that doesn't mean it's a 4x4. I think my main problem is the CVT moreso than the AWD.
    2012 Juke SL AWD Sapphire Black
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  6. #4
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    So this AWD/4X4/4WD discussion has me questioning semantics and marketing jargon.

    If I look at the new Cherokee, that sure looks like AWD to me, regardless of marketing:
    Jeep Capabilities - 4x4 Systems

    For the Juke, the system works a bit differently. The rear drive shaft is always engaged sending power rearwards. At the rear there is no traditional differential, just two clutch packs that engage and disengage to allow the wheels to spin at different speeds. When fully engaged, it is essentially a 50/50 split 4WD system with a locked center and rear differential. It is labeled as 4WD overseas but I suppose AWD is more marketable in this segment. According to Edmunds "...it's not actually an all-wheel-drive system, but an on-demand four-wheel-drive system..."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moJPFTA7YcM
    https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/juke/2011/road-test-2/

    So, if Jeep can call their AWD system a "4X4", and the Juke "AWD" system is technically on-demand 4WD, I think we have free range to call the Juke a 4X4 as well.

  7. #5
    Senior Member Bargeld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lne937s View Post
    So this AWD/4X4/4WD discussion has me questioning semantics and marketing jargon.

    If I look at the new Cherokee, that sure looks like AWD to me, regardless of marketing:
    Jeep Capabilities - 4x4 Systems

    For the Juke, the system works a bit differently. The rear drive shaft is always engaged sending power rearwards. At the rear there is no traditional differential, just two clutch packs that engage and disengage to allow the wheels to spin at different speeds. When fully engaged, it is essentially a 50/50 split 4WD system with a locked center and rear differential. It is labeled as 4WD overseas but I suppose AWD is more marketable in this segment. According to Edmunds "...it's not actually an all-wheel-drive system, but an on-demand four-wheel-drive system..."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moJPFTA7YcM
    https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/juke/2011/road-test-2/

    So, if Jeep can call their AWD system a "4X4", and the Juke "AWD" system is technically on-demand 4WD, I think we have free range to call the Juke a 4X4 as well.
    The Juke is FWD with an AWD system that "redirects up to 50 percent of engine torque to the rear wheels based on input from a bunch of sensors (steering angle, yaw rate, acceleration, braking)." The rear drive shaft is always engaged, but only up to the rear diff. The rear diff determines whether or not that drive shaft will transfer any power. Essentially, the AWD juke just has a rod going down the center of the vehicle that is always spinning, but if the rear diff isn't engaged (which is most of the time) then the rear gets 0 power.
    The AWD juke DOES have a rear diff with clutches that control L/R engagement. Most AWD cars nowadays have the same setup, 100% fwd unless slippage is detected, at which point they can divert up to 50% to the rear. The independent rear L/R control is also controlled by the traction control system and will shift power away from a slipping wheel. You can see all of this occuring in real-time when you change the info on the dash board to the diagram for AWD transfer. Very rarely do you see power to either side of the rear during regular driving.

    The trailhawk has settings to engage a locking diff, 4HIGH, and 4LOW. If the trailhawk does not have those settings active, then it is simply AWD. I've used the locking diff in conjunction with 4 low in order to climb through loose sand and up a 3 foot sand break. The trailhawk was stuck without those modes engaged. Hence my claim... the Juke without any real 4x4 capabilities would have been stuck there. The purpose of a locking diff is so that the system will continue to spin both tires regardless of their traction, which the AWD system will not do.

    Edit: the trailhawk uses the Active Drive Lock 4x4 system:
    The full-time, active Jeep® Active Drive Lock 4x4 System has the capability to take Cherokee Trailhawk® on amazing adventures. The system features a disconnecting rear 4WD axle that automatically engages when more traction is needed. The two-speed system features low range and a locking rear axle for true off-road capability.

    When to use:
    High range: All road surfaces, including wet or snow-covered pavement, sand or gravel. Low range: Conditions requiring added low-speed power, technical driving, and situations when added torque is helpful (e.g. pulling a boat trailer out of water).
    Last edited by Bargeld; 02-16-2017 at 01:48 PM.
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  8. #6
    Junior Member Nismo Offroad's Avatar
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    I guess I could have posted a link showing google (Nissan Juke 4x4) and see what you get. I never questioned nor stated anything about the ability of my car just showing some interesting shots and will continue to do so. I love my ride same as you and will continue to press the boundaries as well as most. There are plenty of reasons for anyone to go either way with theirs and many have done so.
    Last edited by Nismo Offroad; 02-17-2017 at 10:45 AM.
    2013 Nismo AWD Mods: 3" Custom straight pipe exhaust and second cat delete, GFB BOV, Glow Shift Boost gauge, LED Gator lights, Rokblokz Red Mudflaps, 15" Drag wheels 14.5lbs w/ 295/50R15, 42" LED light bar combo, Bull Bar, WELL visors painted, 2J Racing-Bc Coilovers 2" lift, Red Hoses, & Red Pulley, EFi-Logic red IC pipes CAI, MRP FMIC, All door handle covers

  9. #7
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    Sorry to derail and this will be my last post on this. The fact of the matter is Jeep calls all their vehicles that deliver power to both axles 4X4 for marketing purposes, AWD or not, locking diff or not, regardless of capabilities.

    And the Juke does not have a true rear differential (a geared system that allows the wheels to turn at different speeds), just a fixed gear on a shaft delivering torque to clutch packs for each wheel. The only way the rear wheels travel at different speeds is through slipping/disengaging the clutch packs. If the clutch packs are both engaged, it is like a locked differential. Most AWD cars do not have this type of setup at the rear. It is similar to the GKN Twinster "Rear Drive Unit" in the new Focus RS:
    http://www.invetr.com/uploads/2/1/8/...98769_orig.jpg
    Notice the lack of differential gears (as seen in the diagram below) with just a shaft going to the individual clutch packs
    http://www.mrclutchnw.com/wp-content.../2013/05/2.gif

  10. #8
    Junior Member Nismo Offroad's Avatar
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    As far as climbing those rocks goes I was way more concerned with driving over the edge considering no one there to spot for me. But the car had no trouble getting up I actually spun because I was wearing the wrong shoes so to speak. Am need of those knobby tires! Also when I looked at raising the car I was seeing that my axles would become more straight and aligned and had me wonder why lowering doesn't cause more angles.... If anyone has pictures of their axles before or after lowering so I can compare that would be awesome!
    2013 Nismo AWD Mods: 3" Custom straight pipe exhaust and second cat delete, GFB BOV, Glow Shift Boost gauge, LED Gator lights, Rokblokz Red Mudflaps, 15" Drag wheels 14.5lbs w/ 295/50R15, 42" LED light bar combo, Bull Bar, WELL visors painted, 2J Racing-Bc Coilovers 2" lift, Red Hoses, & Red Pulley, EFi-Logic red IC pipes CAI, MRP FMIC, All door handle covers

  11. #9
    Senior Member dude59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lne937s View Post
    Notice the lack of differential gears (as seen in the diagram below) with just a shaft going to the individual clutch packs
    Thanks Ine, the gear head in me likes the tech...it's an integral part of the fun with cars.
    '12 Juke SL AWD '91 BMW 318is

  12. #10
    Senior Member Bargeld's Avatar
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    Yes it's essentially the same as a locked diff... until one of the wheels has slippage. Then the power will be diverted away from that wheel. The whole point of a locked diff is to allow that wheel to continue to have power even during slippage. It might be slipping, but in some cases it's still providing a bit of traction. AWD will not do that, but 4x4 will.

    As far as getting up the rocks, I have to go back to the CVT topic moreso than the AWD topic. The CVT on the AWD juke models is horrible from a stop. That's why most CVT owners love the 2J pulley, because it makes a noticeable difference when launching. Even with the pulley, I know that you had to mash the gas in order to start up those rocks. Once the CVT catches (I would bet you were at 3k+ rpm), then you have to let off the gas. Then rinse and repeat. I doubt is was a very smooth climb, which a 4x4 in 4LOW would tackle much more gracefully.

    The other scenario I would offer as a big difference would be in a grooved muddy rut. Assuming that ride height isn't an issue, it would be hilarious to watch a CVT AWD juke rock itself forward then reverse to try to escape. The CVT in reverse is so very bad. I have to hit 3k rpm+ in order to even start moving up my driveway in reverse. The CVT fights so bad against a reverse load. It's the worse reverse of any vehicle I have ever owned.

    AWD (especially with the Juke CVT) and 4x4 are completely different creatures. And I'm sorry that nismo offroad got offended when I first stated that and followed with a generic google link. But I know from experience that when you are offering an opinion to someone who will probably reject it, it's best to let them change their own mind, because you aren't going to be able to force a change in beliefs directly... so I gave a quick link to a number of resources to allow you to check it out yourself rather than just say it and provide no backing with the expectation that you would just blindly accept my statements. I actually GAVE you the benefit of the doubt that you were knowledgeable enough to make your own decisions rather than just shoving my statement down your throat and calling it a day.
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