Premium Gas, really? - Page 18
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Thread: Premium Gas, really?

  1. #171
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    Selective editing? If we're to have a reasonable debate, please present the relevent information in it's entirety. I believe between those two paragraphs you left off:

    Using unleaded gasoline with an octane
    rating lower than recommended can cause
    persistent, heavy “spark knock”. (Spark
    knock is a metallic rapping noise.) If
    severe, this can lead to engine damage. If
    you detect a persistent heavy spark knock
    even when using gasoline of the stated
    octane rating, or if you hear steady spark
    knock while holding a steady speed on
    level roads, have a NISSAN dealer correct
    the condition. Failure to correct the condition
    is misuse of the vehicle, for which

    NISSAN is not responsible.
    Essentially, Nissan has put out threshold and objective octane ratings. Run 87 and it should be safe for the engine, but it won't run as well (lower output). Run 91 and no worries. However, the part saying IF you detect persistant knock, EVEN using the stated octane rating, and don't shut down your engine Nissan is not responsible for damage is a bit of cause for concern.

    I'll stick to the one with the reduced risk of engine knock, feel free to run what you think is best for your driving habits though.
    Last edited by vettereddie; 06-21-2011 at 08:32 AM.

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  3. #172
    Senior Member ZacMan527's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbox View Post
    I can see most are not prepared to listen to reason. Here is what the manual says, verbatum.
    FUEL RECOMMENDATION
    NISSAN recommends the use of unleaded
    premium gasoline with an octane rating of at
    least 91 AKI (Anti-Knock Index) number (Research
    octane number 96).
    If unleaded premium gasoline is not available,
    you may use unleaded regular gasoline with an
    octane rating of at least 87 AKI number
    (Research octane number 91), but you may

    notice a decrease in performance.
    However, now and then you may notice
    light spark knock for a short time while
    accelerating or driving up hills. This is not a
    cause for concern, because you get the
    greatest fuel benefit when there is light
    spark knock for a short time under heavy
    engine load.

    I think that about covers it.
    But you left out this section:

    Octane rating tips

    Using unleaded gasoline with an octane
    rating lower than recommended can cause
    persistent, heavy “spark knock”.
    (Spark
    knock is a metallic rapping noise.) If
    severe, this can lead to engine damage. If
    you detect a persistent heavy spark knock
    even when using gasoline of the stated
    octane rating, or if you hear steady spark
    knock while holding a steady speed on
    level roads, have a NISSAN dealer correct
    the condition. Failure to correct the condition
    is misuse of the vehicle, for which
    NISSAN is not responsible.

    Incorrect ignition timing will result in spark
    knock, after-run and/or overheating, which may
    cause excessive fuel consumption or engine
    damage. If any of the above symptoms are
    encountered, have your vehicle checked at a
    NISSAN dealer.
    D%$#, just beat me in with that one.
    Last edited by ZacMan527; 06-21-2011 at 08:26 AM.
    2011 Cayenne Red SV AWD - (Navi, splash guards, UK Arm rest, BU Camera)
    : 25+MPG City 30MPG Highway / Dino Oil
    : No Lights, Engine or Exhaust Mods

  4. #173
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    I didn't add any ussless and unrelated information. The manual simply says.

    If unleaded premium gasoline is not available,
    you may use unleaded regular gasoline with an

    octane rating of at least 87 AKI number

    So both 87 and 91 are recommended fuels.

    I never disagreed with your post which states amoung other things.

    Using unleaded gasoline with an octane
    rating lower than recommended can cause

    persistent, heavy “spark knock”.

    So I don't recommend using fuel of less than 87 nor does Nissan.

  5. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbox View Post
    I didn't add any ussless and unrelated information. The manual simply says.

    If unleaded premium gasoline is not available,
    you may use unleaded regular gasoline with an

    octane rating of at least 87 AKI number

    So both 87 and 91 are recommended fuels.

    I never disagreed with your post which states amoung other things.

    Using unleaded gasoline with an octane
    rating lower than recommended can cause

    persistent, heavy “spark knock”.

    So I don't recommend using fuel of less than 87 nor does Nissan.
    I love selective interpretation. It clearly says 91 is recommended. 87 MAY be used if 91 is NOT available. 87 is the minimum octane required by the engine, so you can make it to the next gas station that has premium. Where does it specifically state 87 is recommended? Also, take a peek at the fuel cap/door. I think is says premium is recommended. All I can tell you is that knock (even for a few seconds) is bad, and anything to prevent it is good. I'm done arguing.

    You seem to believe you know your car & its needs better than the team of engineers that built it. More power to you. You can interpret the manual any way you want, but the only way that matters is Nissan's interpretation.

    Again, I just want people reading this to understand that the manufacturer's guidelines are what they should follow. Unless they don't care about the engine warranty.

  6. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbox View Post
    I didn't add any ussless and unrelated information. The manual simply says.

    If unleaded premium gasoline is not available,
    you may use unleaded regular gasoline with an
    octane rating of at least 87 AKI number

    So both 87 and 91 are recommended fuels.

    I never disagreed with your post which states amoung other things.

    Using unleaded gasoline with an octane
    rating lower than recommended can cause
    persistent, heavy “spark knock”.

    So I don't recommend using fuel of less than 87 nor does Nissan.
    Read it again. If you pull up to a pump and premium IS NOT available, then it ok to use 87 UNTIL you can find a station that carries premium. If the pump has both, Nissan's recommendation is to use 91+, NOT either / or.

    This is kind of like the spare tire. Yes, you can drive on it. No, you should not use it as a replacement tire or drive over 55 mph.

    Your car, your engine, use what you want. But to advocate for other people to go against what the OEM engineer's recommend is not good practice.

    Find me a statement that says "NISSAN recommends the use of unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of at least 87 AKI (Anti-Knock Index) number." and I will drop any disagreement, as well as follow that manufacturer recommendation. Nissan does not own Shell, Exxon, BP or any other gasoline distributer, they have no incentive for recommending premium other that's what the design calls for. It would be a great marketing point in fact to say it can run on regular, on the regular.
    Last edited by vettereddie; 06-21-2011 at 11:30 AM.

  7. #176
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    I did not mention this earlier but it may be relevant to the discussion. My other vehicle is a 2006 Scion xB, modified for forced induction application. In it's current configuration, it is specc'd pretty closely to the Juke motor with an all-aluminum 1.5L DOHC motor, variable valve timing, reduced compression to 9.5:1 on a built short block (by me), and a similarly-sized Garrett GT2252 turbocharger good for 150 whp on 5 psi. Fuel and timing are controlled via piggyback ECU running a tuned dyno map.

    Both the ECU manufacturer, AEM, and the tuner, PTuning, advocate only 91-octane or better for this setup. My previous configurations, a Greddy supercharger and later turbocharger controlled with a piggback eManage, also stated the same in the kit documentation. The current setup is custom and as such is without documentation.

    The only new addition with the Juke is the direct-inject, which will help fuel atomization and distribution within the combustion chamber for greater efficiency and burn completeness for reduced emissions, but will not in itself eliminate pre-detonation, only fuel burn rate and ignition timing can fully address that.

  8. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettereddie View Post
    Read it again. If you pull up to a pump and premium IS NOT available, then it ok to use 87 UNTIL you can find a station that carries premium. If the pump has both, Nissan's recommendation is to use 91+, NOT either / or.

    This is kind of like the spare tire. Yes, you can drive on it. No, you should not use it as a replacement tire or drive over 55 mph.

    Your car, your engine, use what you want. But to advocate for other people to go against what the OEM engineer's recommend is not good practice.

    Find me a statement that says "NISSAN recommends the use of unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of at least 87 AKI (Anti-Knock Index) number." and I will drop any disagreement, as well as follow that manufacturer recommendation. Nissan does not own Shell, Exxon, BP or any other gasoline distributer, they have no incentive for recommending premium other that's what the design calls for. It would be a great marketing point in fact to say it can run on regular, on the regular.

    They tell you to run on premium for the simple reason they have sold you a vehicle that specs out 188 hp which will not happen on regular. That is why they recommend premium. After the last fiasco the Japanese manufacturers got into over lying about HP claims they are very carful in what they say.

    I also found out how the ECM handles timing on the Juke. The system will eliminate knock should it occur but it is not a normal function of the knock sensor. It only does this in an emergency and I take that to mean a failure of some other component that will result in serious knock. Here is the real scoop on how this system works. It appears that the system works a little different than either of us first thought.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Premium Gas, really?-chart2.jpg   Premium Gas, really?-system2.jpg  
    Last edited by Thunderbox; 06-21-2011 at 01:24 PM.

  9. #178
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    Edit: Beat me to it, but to re-iterate.

    Browsing the repair manual on engine control system and also came across this:

    The knock sensor retard system is designed only for emergencies. The basic ignition timing is programmed within the anti-knocking zone, if recommended fuel is used under dry conditions. The retard system does not operate under normal driving conditions. If engine knocking occurs, the knock sensor monitors the condition. The signal is transmitted to the ECM. The ECM retards the ignition timing to eliminate the knocking condition.
    Section EC page 46 of the factory repair manual.

    Interpret as you will. I read this as knock not occuring when using the recommended gasoline, 91. If a lower grade is used AND knock occurs, the sensor will kick in and pull timing accordingly. Still, the knock sensor is not meant as an always -on input for the ECU to tune off of, only for emergency application.

    I think the real question is does running 87 produce knock in the Juke, and if so under what driving and engine conditions. Also, is 87 considered recommended? You already know my opinion is no until I can find a statement from Nissan stating otherwise. Since the engine is not designed for lower than recommended, I won't be offering mine up as the test mule. Maybe if I had a spare motor and a drivestand. Who wants to hook up a scangauge, run 87, and data log the knock sensor to plot against the MAP sensor, RPM and timing?
    Last edited by vettereddie; 06-21-2011 at 01:28 PM.

  10. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbox View Post
    They tell you to run on premium for the simple reason they have sold you a vehicle that specs out 188 hp which will not happen on regular. That is why they recommend premium. After the last fiasco the Japanese manufacturers got into over lying about HP claims they are very carful in what they say.
    You do realize this is pure speculation on your part. The only mention I could find is from the USA Today, hardly an automotive expertise periodical. The facts are Nissan recommends 91 and 91 only, the exception being if 91 is not available for a particular fill. I can glean nowhere from the official literature that 87 ok for life of vehicle usage.

    If you are making a claim that that is not correct, than there needs to be documentation to back up the claim. Demonstrating that the ECU is blind to octane rating hurts that claim, since it can not tune-down for lower octane until after a detonation event is detected, and it clearly states that detection is not meant for daily use.

    Keep it out of boost, and yeah, on 9.5:1 it can run on 87 all day long. I happen to enjoy sport mode, i.e. utilize the engine for ALL designed normal operating conditions including under boost, and in that region I don't think you'll find a large body of support for using non-premium.

  11. #180
    Senior Member VileZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbox View Post
    I see you want answers to several questions. Firstly gas in Canada is about 12 cents a litre more for premium. That is 5.89 on a fill. Consider I fill every week that is 306.00 per year or about 1/3 of the cost of insurance for the Juke. I bought a Juke because I liked the vehicle. I also like the fact it will run perfectly fine on regular albeit with slightly less performance, not a big deal for many of us. I don't feel you are in any position to suggest I buy a less expensive car. I think I earn my own money and I would appreciate it if you give me the respect that I am not crazy and know full well what I am doing.

    Secondly I am not a know nothing average person. I taught at the Canadian Forces School of Electrical and Mechanical Engineering and have been a fully Licenced Auto Motive mechanic for over 40 years. I have published several articles on oil in trade magazines and keep up to date by talking to Tribologists who work for a major Petro Chemical Company. I also am responsible for a large Police fleet and we do not have any engine problems. As a matter of record, in the 20 years I have been here we have never lost an engine due to wear. 70 million kilometers and not a single engine wear failure, I think I know what I am talking about. You can believe what you want I could care less. The part that irks me is you think you know something about oil and engines and it is obvious that you actually have only a basic knowledge of the subject. It is people like you who advise people to do this and do that that I worry about. You are the best friend of the people who like to upsell for oil and fuel. Yes I understand you have a belief and it is hard to change a person who has a belief. Ask your friends at the dealers if they have ever seen a properly maintained vehicle have a failure because the dino oil was insufficient to keep it lubricated properly. They will say "no" for sure. But if you really do the work and research you will find that what I say is not BS. I am happy to share my knowledge with everybody.

    By the way there is no reference to requiring Synthetic Lubricants in the Juke engine. There is nothing in the manual that suggests using a Synthetic Lubricant will lengthen the life of the vehicle either. For very good reason. Oils today are so much better than they were just 10 years ago it is hard to believe. Just keep your oil changed as the manual suggests and you will go for hundreds of thousands of miles.
    Might I suggest taking posts on the internet a little less personal? I was only posting questions. It's nice that you have all that experience, but you are not the only expert in the world. I don't pretend to be an expert, but if my comments made me give that impression my mistake.

    I guess my point of view is also altered because I live in Texas, and I am sure your vast amount of knowledge may have to agree that when you are in 100+ degree weather (with 120+ degrees in rush hour easy) a synthetic blend is a good idea. Doesn't take long to see a bunch of cars overheating on the side of the highways when summer first hits us.

    If you manage an entire police fleet of cars I would still wonder why on earth $5 a fill up makes a large difference to you, but I don't expect you (I wouldn't) to explain your finances on a forum. If you want to putt around on low grade fuel that's your choice. I was not trying to insinuate you are any less sane than I am.


    Vetter - Really good points you are making. I would have to agree it looks like the system is setup to handle 87 "in a pinch". That's how I read that little excerpt at least. Nice find.
    Last edited by VileZ; 06-21-2011 at 03:16 PM.
    '12 Cayenne Red SL

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